She’s busy helping recover Faery, and I’m busy figuring out how to improve our files’ display qualities. I think I’ve solved a few problems.
Meanwhile I’m ending the poll—I think we’ve got our answer, so nothing changes. The new poll is going to ask: What device are you using?
@kokipy: traditional publishers don’t talk about direct publishing, since thats the biggest risk for all of them. With ebooks there might not be a real need for publishing houses any longer – if they don’t change a bit. I don’t know whether they feel they need to change. They seem to be very afraid to change.
For me as a reader I see for a publishing house following traditional roles: #1 search and select author/manuscript, #2 edit the book, #3 print the book, #4 advertise the book, #5 distribute book to bookshops. #6 give reputation to author: we print it, it must worth it somehow (depends on #1).
#3 and #5 are not necessary any more with e-books.
#2 can be done by the author or an independent editor (and seems often be done very lazily by publishing houses anyway, nowadays)
Keeps to be done: #1 Someone who helps authors to develop themselves. Since most publishing houses seem to do this less nowadays and only are eager to print bestsellers of known authors – they don’t do the thing I (the reader) pay them for.
#4 Advertising – how much is it done anyway for non-bestseller authors? I’ve never encountered advertising for a book of a real science fiction author anyway (I live in Germany, that might be different in the US). I went usually by reputation and recommendation (see #6) and browsing the bookstore (for the younger of you: once upon a time bookshops had not only “Lord of the Rings” and book 4,5 and 7 of “Series with cardboard character set #4689” but a real repertory)
#6 someone who helps me (the reader) to choose, what might be good. A reputation network – if C.J. Cherry recommends Jane Fancher, I might try something of Ms Fancher (this is not new…). Anthologies (selected by a known entity) might be possible also in a digital form. And a reader network – if people who like other books I like too, their recommendation might be worth to help me find new authors. A blurb can lure me, some convincing sample chapters – and I buy (I need to know what the book is about and if I like the style).
My perspective is of course only of a reader. But if the publishing houses won’t develop new authors, won’t print backlist books of known authors and want to patronize me – with DRM, silly price models (e-book as expensive as printed book) and their cry for copyright persecution – why not pay the author directly?
Publishing houses and book stores don’t see the new possibilities: print on demand for backlist books – technical possible.
Possible dialog in a bookshop: “Please print one copy of The Pride of Chanur and I’d like a cocoa while I wait for it” (they already sell cocoa). “So you want a real book: a collectors edition, a large print edition, a light travel edition or a normal softcover? Cocoa with whipped cream? Is it for you or a man (we have this cover graphic with very *female* looking cats, a neutral cover or this very *male* human)”.
((Sorry, Pride of Chanur has real potential in cover graphics, I got carried away … But I’d order my copy of Gate of Ivrel with a different cover than the one I have 😉 ))
Lol. You’re right.
But re publishers and the 20th–er, 2-FIRST century—
I shoved, heaved, and pushed to get my publishers to accept a computer file…to actually send a file TO the printer rather than paying a typesetter to retype a manuscript from my typescript. The kicker was when every question mark was done as Spanish in a galley proof.
It was sooooo revolutionary. And they didn’t want to put me in direct contact with (gasp) their printer. THey’d deliver the disk by courier and no, I couldn’t send a letter with it to explain anything. Their cranky software wouldn’t accept ital codes, so I invented my own. They didn’t understand a ‘global’. and they damn sure couldn’t read my file. So I put my letter and instructions for global replace of the codes onto the disk that went to the print. Eventually the printer and I got into friendly social contact. But it meant their gruntlevel key artist was out of a job.
They don’t advertise.
They hated my being in contact with the artists—hey, my brother was an sf artist: still is, sort of; and I had any phone number I wanted.
Literally, business was done in the Victorian mode, with a handshake. Then the oil companies bought up the businesses. Poor gentlemanly Ian Ballantine (Ballantine Books) was bought up, and “They” promised everything would be run the same, and he could semi-retire to just reading manuscript, and let ‘Them’ run the hard stuff: he’d have his office, and his staff and all—that lasted a few months before they found no more need for him, and shoved him out the door of the publishing house he’d created. That was the opening volley in what hasn’t been a good situation.
Now you see the situations where books die stillborn—everything goes along, right down to the wire, and the market buyers refuse the book because they’re no longer book people who can judge the quality of a book, but business majors interested in their statistical ‘model’ of the ‘product’ within the ‘market model’ etc.
If publishers went aggressively digital and paid the writers the lion’s share of the income from the book—they might fare better in the change that’s coming; but few of the people now running the publishing companies have a ‘book’ background, and few in the decision-making seats care whether it’s books or tomato soup they’re marketing.
Believe it or not, some publishing houses were bought because tax situations at the time made it attractive to have an operation within your structure that would ‘lose’ money. It let you write off so many things. Then the loophole closed, and these mega-corporations are left with these little Victorian enterprises that have different values than the corporate megabeast, and they can’t sell them—because what other megacorp is going to buy one in THIS market? Remember Ted Turner and the Time-Warner thing that is now owned by Hachette, in France, and has cable and Lord knows what bundled up in the mess? That was part of the “Can we make money out of paper enterprises?” gone mad. That was where *I* was when the hammer dropped; Jane issued her first book, Groundties, the month the roof caved in. It’s sort of like saying you were on the passenger list for the Titanic.
Closed Circle is our lifeboat. We can’t take on more passengers than we have, but if we chain a bunch of lifeboats together, and go the same direction, we can make a bigger blip in a large ocean.
@CJ: I just finished a 10-15 minute long questionnaire from Harper-Collins on how, when, and what I read over the last twelve months. They also wanted to know how much I would be interested in paying for various features that they are considering. Most of the features I wouldn’t pay for and had no interest in. I think they (the new features) were more tied in to what non-readers seem to want; movie clips, music clips, videos; chats, etc.
In a nutshell. That questionnaire was done by one of the bean-counters with his little list of ‘what sells’ that’s remotely tied to ‘information marketing’. They’re trying to refine their ‘model.’ And yes, movies are more popular than books, because people who can read and follow a plot are less numerous than people who can see a picture and listen to it read to them.
Now they’ll develop a ‘model’ of books as a ‘niche market’ for those ‘users’ who want them, and eventually diminish the book department of Harper-Collins the way they treated poor Ian Ballantine, until in the next shuffle, it loses staff, and then somebody loses it out of the corporate catalog and nobody notices. I had a heart to heart with one of the Harper editors who saw it coming and was very sad and gloomy about it all. There is not much cheer in the situation.
And the reason the little Victorian enterprises don’t change their model and go e-book? MOst haven’t got the authority left to make a decision, and if they do have, it’s a very, very very scary thing to contemplate breaking the network of relationships with suppliers and distributors that’s been forged literally spanning 3 centuries, now. Publishers have lived in terror of offending a distributor. The distributor’s money is Now. It’s paying the bills this month. E-book money is pie in the sky, and the market is in transition. And these are very, very scary times.
How that applies to Hella’s observation and Steve’s, re where’s the new writer going to get some shepherding—that’s scary too. Not everybody who posts a tome on the internet is skilled. Understatement. Something will get done, and Lord knows I’ve done my share of mentoring, but real mass-market editors have skills too. I’d like to see some of that endangered species set up shop online, handle manuscripts personally and skillfully, not with a megastaff hired out of the want ads, and make a go of it. I know people that could do it—but so far, nobody’s done it.
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/158009/first-major-author-skips-publisher-grants-e-book-rights-to-amazon/
I think you beat him to the punch, but this is the second news article this week regarding publishing houses trying to grab the rights of eformatted books with contracts written before it became common practice. The above link is going to create litigation for certain.
Yes I saw that one. I think I got the link from Book View Cafe.
Maybe this has been mentioned higher in the thread, but I saw that Nielson (?) closed Editor and Publisher and Kirkus last week or so. Presumably nobody is advertising in the trade pubs. But without trade pubs, there is no trade, and vice versa, I suppose.
THat’s scary. The slide has started, I fear.
And the last thing anyone wants, or should want, is Amazon and that ilk to have a lock on the business.
You are dead on about the contract interpretation. The authors will win this one. There can have been no meeting of the minds about rights in ebooks in a contract written before ebooks existed.
So what can be done to advertise and promote CC beyond those already here? I know you plan on flyers at conventions – what about an ad in Locus? and other similar places? or would that consume all profits?
I think it would help to have reciprocal links with other authors who are also doing this in their own way. Many readers will be interested in multiple sources, and if it were possible to surf from CC to other sites, all linked, one could check up every month or so for new releases. Right now I know of only two such sites, including this one [the other being Barbara Hambly’s], but I bet there are others, and with authors I’d like to read. This seems too much word of mouth to maximize profit and reader happiness. We could have a thread over at the other place to collect this information, but that would not have sufficient visibility. Unfortunately I don’t think it can be mentioned at Librarything – they would think it was spamming. What if there were a website with links to all CC-like places for SF and fantasy? Does anyone know of any other similar sites?
I’ve left a message with the 2 CJ Facebook groups. They’re not very active but the message is there.
Kokipy, ‘Fox has already mentioned CC on LT, in the Green Dragon. No one is angry, either – rather the opposite. It was very recently, but one person has said ‘thanks’, at least 😉
It would take all profits, thus far. I figure we can do teeshirts with our logo—pass out flyers. And do public appearances and programs at sf conventions—which can’t save the industry in other fields. But a central site would be a good thing.
Science fiction started in its present form with Don Wollheim, Uncle Ike (Isaac Asimov) and Fred Pohl and others gathered in a New York apartment… around a market dominated by Hugo Gernsback and a few other mags. Don got shut out of the first ever WorldCon because of a fannish feud. It started small—mimeo machines, dim-printed newsletters, and sneakernet long before there was an internet. Nobody had a car—they invited Elsie in: her dad had one. Don married her. Not just because of the car… but that mighty engine was all the power and transport early sf had.
Those were the days, my friends. And they may need to come again—but now we’ve got the internet.
WordPress is free. It’s easy to set up a site. You can do it in a day.
And somebody(s) who want a Cause and have the time can do it. I can’t take it on: I’ve committed all I’ve got to CC. But it’s a good notion.
I’ve not answered the polls, mainly because ebooks aren’t my thing. The devices available in Europe are too chunky, and I hope for the Apple tablet thingy, whenever it sees the light. On screen reading is not an option, I print even short documents to avoid hurting eyes. I know the eInk tech is better, but as I said – the selection available is not to my liking.
Also I favour paperbooks, which means that there’s a high probability that I’ll buy ebooks when no alternative is available, and pay someone like Lulu.com to print and bind them for me. So I hope that’ll be all right?
My husband would rather have me buy ebooks and a reader, he thinks we’ve enough shelves as is, BUT a home without paperbooks is a home without a soul (yes, I’m from a family with a long tradition in typesetting, printing, writing, editing, and publishing; I know I’m biased).
When a device that I feel comfy with arrives, I’ll get it.
Sure it is ok to use lulu, Busifer.
And I believe there is a reading-voice available on Win7; there is in Acrobat Pro, and there is in MSReader software—I think it’s a coming thing. The other advantage to a reader (I use “reader” in this case meaning the software) like Calibre is that you can dial up the print size. But yes, print away. Print a typescript on your own printer and bind it. No problem. When I sell you the e-book, it’s fully manipulatable.
There’s a lot of good things with ebooks, so printing them is probably a temporary option – something I’ll do until I can get a good enough reader.
(The reading-voice option is not an option, I like audiobooks for their theatre-like quality, with a narrator doing different voices in different ways…)
But it’s good to know that it’s OK for you that I print them!
(Ouch, ugly sentence. Writing a report in swedish atm and language shifts can be tricky, lol)
Despite what I said above I think ebooks is the way to go. Anything that can break the might and power of the big and generally disinterested brokers (the publishing houses) is good!
I selected ‘Other’ because I hate reading on any computer since I got a 6″ BeBook. I also have a ‘wrinkled blue PEZ (1st ed.!)’ – 5″ Astak, that is, and a Sony 505 so I can have something sort of industry standard… Yeah, I got carried away. But I love reading on eInk. I like the BeBook because it is lighter than the Sony, and the buttons easier to press. And the BeBook handles almost all the formats you are using, all by itself. The 5″ PEZ has almost all the same features as the BeBook, but smaller, easier to carry around, but harder to read unless I adjust the font size. Oh, epub is my favourite format, it’s pretty near the European standard, I think.
I posted the opening of the site to the ebooks community on Dreamwidth; that community does not have much action but has a batch of readers. I’m going to try the same thing with the science fiction and fantasy communities. There’s no Cherryh community on Dreamwidth; it’s new this year, but if anyone has a LiveJournal account that would be another place to start spreading the word. Word of mouth is slow, but as people find the site it will spread. As all the techie stuff gets worked out people will comment in other sites and word will get around.
CJ are you a SFWA member? I wonder if they would be interested in what the three of you have accomplished. Maybe some free advertising.
SFWA can get political in unexpected ways and I don’t want to get a debate going between the print and e-folk…
What I am thinking of doing, however, is putting together a little promo download over at Closed Circle consisting of our flier, and suggestions for CC sig tags, etc, if anybody wants to carry them around. Ideas are welcome.
We are also going to be designing some Closed Circle tee-shirts for Cafe Press: wearing those at sf conventions could spread the word. Who knows? Maybe bumper stickers.
Cross link to Book View Cafe?
Good suggestion. I’ve dropped a note to Hambly and Book View asking them to check us out. Barbara and several of the writers in BV are old friends. I’m trying to talk some other writers I know into a similar operation. The hard part is rounding up several seasoned writers with the passion to do it, with (somewhere in the group) the computer skills and the art capability, too. Many of the writers who have gotten into the gears of the system have just given up and dropped out of contact.
Jane, foremost, and Tulrose and Todd and others—you’ve kicked me into a Good Idea.
A quote from Robert Silverberg. “I used to wonder what happened to all the Grand Old Men of Science Fiction. Suddenly I realize I am one!”
So am I.
Jane has long wanted to make a Green Room, where people who were there, or who at least have the stories about the Grand Old Men, can go and post them so the next-gen can hear them and pass them down. She’s set up to do that with her Pub software over on her site. And I’m going to make a special blogroll, with links to all the Old Men of Science Fiction—or at least to their web-presences. Some are friends of mine…some, alas, all this e-business is too late for: I miss Poul Anderson, and Gordie Dickson, and Robert Heinlein. I miss C.L. Moore and Andre Norton and Marion Bradley. And Don and Elsie, and Uncle Ike. But there are some Important Writers out there you need to meet, if you haven’t. And if they’ll link to me, and to CC, great; but if not, that’s all right. You still should meet them, cuddly or prickly or whatever they are. They’re Minds in the great dark, and it’s worth knowing they’re out there. I don’t know whether Jane will take the links onto her site, or whether I’ll have them here, but I think we have got ourselves a good idea, aside from the commercial venture of Closed Circle. I think there’s real value in knitting the web together, by every combination of crosslinks we can manage.
That all sounds awesome. But don’t leave out the new generation: Charlie Stross has posted here a couple of times – I like his books,they are a lot of fun and he is very e-oriented. I think some of his books are available as ebooks.
I wish I could volunteer to set up the website that collects the links to everyone that is epublishing, but (a) I am not qualified, and (b) not sure I have the time. I would however use that site for all it’s worth. I will go to our other place and see if anyone there has the aptitude and the time. But the real kicker will be to find the links – maybe that information can be generated at cons.
I visit Robin McKinley’s site from time to time, and since she is married to Peter Dickinson he would be in the loop. Robin Hobb is also on-line. I bet most of the good sf and fantasy writers are. I know it is a lot of work to set something like CC up, but the more of you that do it the better for everyone. I am thinking this is a movement! [as in Alice’s Restaurant…]
What I need is a starting point and a visual idea. And I’ll let it perk a while: gathering the names and the addys isn’t too hard: I have many already. This isn’t to be a separate operation from CC, or a huge project, mind (already up to our eyeballs) just a room where new readers can have a look at websites of some of the concept-architects of the field, not to mention some of the legendary personalities. And people who are now doing what we’re doing and operating in e-space,running e-book operations or web-presence are apt for this. But before I take any of this on, I’ll be working at getting OUR operation running.
Exactly. CC comes first. YOU THREE come first with us. But it’s the information and the links that make the movement. My thought is that you must all share many readers other than me, and all of us would like to know that all of you have ebooks available. It’s all marketing.
But I do think it could be a movement, and synergy, and rising tides to everyone’s benefit. The new year would be soon enough to think about this.you three should rest on your laurels for a little while…. What an achievement you’ve made with CC. Whew. A toast to you!
😆 and we’ve still got a bit more uphill to pedal—um, peddle. As in sell. We’ve got to pay the bills.
“(The reading-voice option is not an option, I like audiobooks for their theatre-like quality, with a narrator doing different voices in different ways…)”
I’m sure it’ll come to that in time. The recommendations with quite a few of the things one would need for that have been out for years. Practical support is lacking. Opera’s voice engine can be coaxed to read at different speeds with male or female voices at different pitches and a few other things. It’s still crude, but it’s a beginning.
It will, but do we want everything to be machine-made? I’d like for the machines to give us time to peruse what’s important for us as humans, not to get more time to get stressed in 😉
(There’s some real nice screen-readers out there, for people with cognitive problems or who’ve just old enough to be visually impaired, btw. Soon we can all go live in a closed tank, letting our lived play itself out on our retinas and in our brains. Do I want? Not particularly…)
Actually it needn’t be so difficult. This web-two-dot-o thing means anyone can set up a blog, hosted by for example WordPress, for free, and then ANYONE can post relevant links, with the possibility to comment, organize by tags, etcetera.
I mean, it’s more of a pointer to other things, a link repository, than anything else, which means anybody should be allowed to contribute (even if monitoring has to be done). Crowd-sourcing!
Stanza works well with OS X and iPhones/iPod Touch, as well as Windows.
Do check out eReader; works on Macs, PCs, PDA, iPhones, Blackberries . . . does a straight forward import of HTML with CSS.
http://www.ereader.com
eReader, oddly, isn’t much written about–they’re more than ten years old.
Haven’t heard from BookView, but we’ve had an instant and friendly response from Barbara Hambly, who’s linked in, and likewise Janny Wurts hunted me down, and has no e-books (yet) but is working with her backlist. Don Maitz (art) is on that link. Links are available now on CC.
As of today, Calibre went to version 6.29. I installed the library app on my MacPro, and it seems to be fine I rather like the management side, and the reader itself is displaying the graphics correctly. Not a beachball in sight. Just in time, too. 13″ of snow…
Just finished and enjoyed Faery Moon. As you mention you’re still working on it, I have one request:
Neither Caith nor Dubhain would drink whiskey – that’s either an Irish or American drink. The Scottish version is always whisky without the e, although pronounced the same.
The differences in drink are quite notable, and the spelling grated everytime it came up. Hopefully it isn’t too much bother to correct on the next revision.
Thanks for the ebooks, looking forward to some more and reading Jane’s and Abby’s.
‘Fox