There is the general spoiler page for general questions.
I’m making this set of pages for more specific questions.
The rule is: do not ask or comment about a book until it has been at least a month in issue. I think that will make everybody happy re spoilers.
Ooops. Forgot about the second Fleet. The first Fleet was manned (or at least officered) from the ranks of the merchanters and bloody-minded independent insystem pilots like miners, Shepherds etc, a decision that EC was regretting even before the Fleet launched.
I’m a bit sceptical about the effectiveness of the second Fleet. EC lost control of the first one, so the second would probably be all EDC, with very little deep space or combat experience beyond system defence. Probably why they started shooting at knnnn ships – lack of experience.
Ah! is off. Sorree!
Whilst the EC did dump Mazian – and that was the ultimate result of Ayer’s agreement with Union – I still suspect that they had effectively lost him, as a controllable asset, a long time ago. You see in Hellburner, with Mazian riding the political wave in Europe (the continent, not the carrier!) that he’s very much his own animal.
With the war effectively lost, Ayer’s proposal was the most logical step for the EC. Better to have the war resolved in the dark, than see Union at Earth and the EC dismantled. Mazian was the sacrifice in that deal – at first I read it as a callous move on the part of the EC (which it was), but how much appetite would Union have had to see Mazian return to Earth?
None, I would say – given what we know of the sheer paranoiac regard in which they hold him.
So the EC did their deal. They would lose the war, but they would do so out in the dark; the only irony being that it prompted Mazian to do what they’d feared, and fall back to Earth. Only this time he’d clearly decided it would be under his own terms, rather than under Union guns.
So many what-ifs from this period – had the Gate attack worked, then what? Was Mazian buying-time for some other move which never came? Or did he genuinely believe he could maintain/win the war with the resources to hand? Obviously he still had some support from elements within the EC; and still does, via the commentary in Finity’s End and Tripoint.
That could be where my friend pick the second fleet reference from (still no word, sadly, to clarify – so all speculation); but Earth has time. It built and launched 50 carriers, and untold numbers of other vessels – and then has a long-period of realtime whilst the war plays out. Do they simply stop building? Are the docks taken up with repair/refit?
Interesting questions – borrowing from our own history, you keep building. As Britain did during the Great War, and America did in WW2. Union are certainly doing so, so unless the EC thought they’d committed sufficient materials or simply couldn’t see any profit, why would they stop?
Of course, the EC are a corporate entity – when you start imagining the whole war from a Profit/Loss position you start to get an appreciation for their likely decision-making. In the end it all worked out very well for them, considering the likely implications of their loss – they survived; the nasty little business of their rebellious Fleet was effectively being handled by their former enemies; and they found a suitable buffer in the Alliance, and one with which they could trade.
As for the loss of Tully’s ship – was he not some form of explorer? I’d almost imagined them in something like the Union needleship. Great for going and having a look, but nothing you’d fight with. The crew size tallies, also – it didn’t seem like he’d been on multi-thousand crew carrier.
What was the second loss to the Kif though? I missed that one.
As for firing on the Knnn – war nerves? Everything else out in the dark has been a hostile contact, so it would be understandable to fire. The Mahendosat must know something of the human capabilities, in deciding to use them so decisively – I mean, you wouldn’t bring in a weak ally to be the hammer with which to crack the Kif, now would you?
This loss of the shepherds, miners, etc – I don’t know how well that pans out. Initially, yes – but the war is very long, and allows time for successive generations to come through. After all, as the war sucks up the ‘war generation’ there are others, young, willing to move in; and those older, who retain the experience but perhaps do not have the required demographic for war service.
Just a thought – and, of course, tape training is the great leveler in many respects.
The war was (according to the timeline) 30 years from the first sucessful Hellburner test in 2324 to the Treaty of Pell in 2354, although I seem to recall one the books says 40 years.
So one or maybe two generations.
I can’t see how the second Fleet can have had any real combat experience and precious little in deep-space operations. Maybe they were relying on skill tapes, but as it says in Hellburner tape training leads to predictable responses.
That was the issue that Union originally had, and why the Fleet had such initial successes – but, as with all things, the only way to gain experience is to go and get it. Whilst you might lament any second Fleet not having combat experience, there was a time when the first didn’t either; so I’m not placing too much emphasis on that.
Earth didn’t either, in sending those ships into Compact space – they and the Mahendosat obviously thought they were up to the task being asked of them.
The comment about Hani ships being able to automatically pilot themselves – I don’t think that’s beyond human capabilities. As witness Hellburner, there was clearly an AI available to pilot the ship – but a conscious decision was made in favour of human control. Interesting little point, that.
Um, yes, but the first Fleet was launched against an enemy that had no combat experience either. It was just assumed that “real” pilots would be better than tape-trained zombie robots, by Jingo!! Wrong, which is why the war lasted as long as it did.
Rider at the Gate and Cloud’s Rider – a remote part of this universe and apparently two books reclaimed by Ms. Cherryh.
When I saw that these were no longer supported by any publisher I got out my copies and re-read them.
What a tough read. You have to be up on your toes lest you miss the important clues as to what is going on. Neither book has much in the way of comedic relief – or even just a pleasant interval.
These are really tough books set in perhaps the most inhospitable of all of Ms. Cherryh’s settings. Survival is almost a minute to minute thing.
But most definitely worth the price of admission.
I can see where there is the possibility for another volume but I am not sure if there is the readership.
Oh my… some familiar faces here.
Rich, I love your avatar!
Thanks, Spence. I figured it would make me more recognizable to those who already know me. This is a killer site. Yet more information to be gleaned…
Going back to the c-charged rock thing – Elizabeth Bear’s Hammered, Scardown, WorldWired explores the impact of dropping a big rock (but small enough to have been in the hold of a starship) at nothing like C into Lake Ontario: “only” thirty million dead on first impact, but the subsequent environmental disruptions look like they’re going to take out the whole world over the next few years without huge tech intervention. A bit of finessing the trajectory to get the hit would be a good trade-off for loss of speed.
… oh, and PS, thinking 911, if you’re worried about the mechanics of steering the c-charged rock, just hit the planet with the starship …
So, Rich, you could not resist the lure of the dark side….
Always nice to get some fresh input, yes?
Ref hitting the planet with the ship – yeah, especially since these things use anti-matter as a power source. A much bigger bang for your bucks.
I thought that the other place was the dark side?
Anyway, why not strap a couple engines and a small jump vane to a tractor trailer sized rock? Yo get a massively destructive object that;s steerable. Get close to the planet and cycle the vanes…
How do the Shepherds steer rocks? Given their name, they must have some skills.
That’s not too clear, is it? The processing ship slings a shed-load of ore towards Jupiter using a mass driver, and the Shepherds, er, well, they sort of catch it. Rather like catching a shotgun blast in a bucket. No wonder the Fleet wanted them for Hellburner pilots.
My guess: the Shepherds have to pick up the incoming, match speeds with it and grapple. Compared to which, Hellburners should be a piece of very high-speed cake.
Love the avatar, Richard!
As for the question about experience – I still think that can be obtained, and need not prove such a hurdle. Union did it, after all, so it sounds like we’re in agreement.
I’m back reading Downbelow Station again, after digging it over last weekend. I’m still unconvinced by Mallory – possibly because, given the opportunity to make the decision for her, I would have run to Earth with Mazian.
Awesome book, however – definitely going to root around the packing crates for the rest. This will teach me to be so lax in unpacking after moving!
Thanks for the avatar comment. That is actually a minituarized icon. The model I’m building of Norway contains 73 layers and 2.5 million polygons. I’m hoping to finish it this winter, complete with paint, lights, and animation. It has been under construction since 2006. You can’t see it very well, but there are 4 hellburners mounted on it, as well.
That is one sweet ship model. I assume you will animate it and the riders once you’ve completed them? Hope you share some footage!
Ooops! I should also mention that Spiderdavon, Selden, Busifer and Hrspence are and were instrumental in the build. All members of the Shejidan site, actually.
x2 on the model. Beautiful.