For quite a while modern historians have been inclined to doubt the Roman viewpoint in history: if Romans reported it, it’s got to be propaganda has been the view quite conspicuously on the history channel, with certain folk with whom yrs truly has personally butted heads. The Romans had an ethic about truth, a pretty strong one. And they said this was the reason nobody wanted to be a prisoner of these tribes…
They weren’t kidding.
They were inconveniently living-impaired….
(I borrowed the line from a fan podcast, an episode wherein a henchman is attempting to avoid his former employers’ attempts to inconvenience him in such a manner.)
So, to sum up the article, the defeated army victims were of so far unknown tribal/national group, killed presumably by Teutons, and the Teutons were less than tidy or prompt about, well, post-battle cleanup?
Not your best day ever, whether you’re 13 or 45.
“Some unknown god.” — They don’t know or aren’t sure yet which god(s) was/were being “worshiped.” — From the article, the researchers don’t yet have enough findings to be too sure of details, but those may become clearer. (I caught myself before saying details might “surface.”)
The uneasy truth is, many or most tribes back then were not the nicest, friendliest folks to be around. How “national” versus “tribal” it was might be debatable.
Interesting how that axe looks a great deal like a modern axe. Some things reach an optimum and stay there.
I’d expect only a couple of thousand years wouldn’t make a lot of difference in the genome findings, but it might say a lot about diversification and combining, back then and now.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
All’s fair in love and war? …Geez…
In Caesar’s Gallic War there’s a chapter about how a whole legion was tricked into leaving their camp and then ambushed. Most were killed in heavy fighting, but a few made it back to the fortified camp. The eagle-bearer threw the eagle over the wall into the camp before he was killed. The remnant fought on until night fell and the Gauls withdrew. During the night they all commited suicide rather than face being captured alive the next morning, and either being tortured to death or burned alive as an offering to the Gallic gods.
Roman history is like Roman portrait sculpture – warts and all. In portraiture the Romans had the attitude, “I may be be ugly, I may be old, but I want to be depicted as I really am, not in some idealized way.”
See this BBC documentary about Roman art:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JPBj2loGjI
Roman history was the same. Far from glorifying Roman victories in battle, all Roman historians skim quickly and matter-of-factly over all the victories, and agonize at length and in detail about the few failures and defeats.
Julius Caesar’s account of his conquest of Gaul is well worth reading. It’s an eventful chronicle of bold risks and narrow escapes, filled with the most intense emotions, the highest loyalty and the basest treachery, extreme courage and extreme cowardice, brilliant skill and horrible stupidity.
But you would never know it if you just read the book casually.
Caesar has a way of writing in one flat, factual, elegant sentence what would take any other writer three emotion-filled pages to describe. So you definitely have to read between the lines a bit. You have to stop and think what he’s just said, and what that really means.
You can get the W. A. MACDEVITT translation at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10657.
From my understanding, even into the Christian era they were especially ruthless, this time bearing the Cross…
Read up in Wiki on the individual Merovingian and Carolingian kings…there was a crew. You won’t hear the worst of it in the mass accounts, where they just talk about their expansions and international goings-on. It’s up close and personal where personalities shine. Roman civilization lay very lightly on the northern tribes— there is a tenuous connection to a Roman of senatorial class (Ansbertus) and the lot fairly well turned handsprings to make that genealogical connection, ergo to the legimacy of Rome, there is a curious blend of primitive and civilized. They assassinate their relatives, every queen is a saint (literally), they believe royal power lies in the fact their kings don’t cut their hair, and their relationships were epic—for those queens who weren’t saints. See: Brunhilda of Austrasia.
I’ve done quite a lot of reading in the Roman view of the Celts, and the Germano-Celtic attempts to be Roman—and even as early as the relationship of Dumnorix and Diviacus (qv) the princes of the Aeduan tribe, you can see that on the one hand they may take on the toga, shave, bathe daily and speak Latin, but the family relations are always prone to explode in spectacular acts of vengeance…and if a given person keeps his cool, his relations that haven’t read the same play-book are apt to up the ante.
Talk about dysfunctional families.
Charlemagne’s successful war against the Alvars totally depopulated Pannonia and according to the medieval account ‘left it a desert’. In one of his wars in the Rhine area the resultant massacre apparently bothered even his contemporaries.
Not a nice man.
Pannonia was one of those places where all roads/byways met. It used to be heavily wooded,apt for ambushes, was denuded, then turned to farmland, where you could more easily see trouble coming—it was so prone to invasion that the Roman empire urged legionaries as they retired to settle there, so it retained a trained militia at all times. It was THE route into the southern lands, and if you were going to have peace in the south you had to keep the door (Pannonia) shut…because the tribal peoples were lined up waiting for a weakness. It is NOT where I would choose to live, in ancient times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars
As the ROman influence faded they were increasingly what we would tend to lump together as barbarians, but they were more complex than that…as was, to be sure, the entire region.
My stack To Be Read is more like a tower or a heap, but I’ll add that translation of The Gallic Wars to it, and the original Latin, just to see what it looks like (and perhaps motivate myself towards another language).
I’ve decided to get myself into the habit of reading/studying an hour a night. I’d gotten out of my (voracious) habit of reading, from burnout and stress, and haven’t fully gotten back into it. How huge a departure from my norm, how long it’s been, and the causes…plus whatever’s blocking me from resuming the habit…I’ll just be glad when I’m back in the groove. But there are things I *must* learn/relearn, and things I *want* to read, for learning or pleasure, so….
—–
“Ansbertus” — That name’s Romanized Germanic if ever I saw one.
“Alvar” — Is, or sure looks like, another one of the many variants on “Elves:” alfr, aelfr, aelfen, alben, aubes, all with an ah or ae (as in cat) vowel, l/w/u, f/v/b, plus the right ending for nominative or genitie plural in the language. — Not that those particular Alvar (tribe) were elves, just that “elves” seemed to be downright popular back then. Well, unless they were bad elves or you were a human in league with bad elves, or duped by them, such as a changeling. Always convenient to blame the other guy or the other group, it seems.
(No, what that would have to do with Romans is beyond me. Germanic tribes or Celts, though, would. I’d suppose the Roman and Greek equivalents were there, dryads, nymphs, fauns, etc.)
—–
Swerving (careening) back on topic, I’d think the Germanic and Celtic tribes must’ve had internal arguments over just how bloodthirsty their leaders and warriors were, and how to worship their gods. All the European cultures were vastly different from modern times, but still, there were the origins there, and they *became* civilized and modern…eventually. Am I being too apologist there? Was it a scale, bell curve, of behavior? Not that modern, civilized humans can’t also be brutally barbaric. Witness the last century or so of escalated wars. Enough to discourage anyone into misanthropy. And yet there are still those better, saner folks, just trying to live. (Pardon, my existentially conflicted angst appears to be showing.)
One wonders *why* a perfectly good axe (it appears) was thrown away instead of reused. Was it considered somehow cursed? Or was it sanctified to the sacrifice and purposefully given as a prize? Was it clutched, buried or disposed of with the owner (or the one who won it)? Was it, well, embedded and too much trouble to extract from the poor guy who (literally) got the axe? Was it forgotten, overlooked? Was someone in a hurry to leave, so it was left behind? There could be all sorts of things about that axe. All conjecture and circumstantial, of course. Hmmm….
The Gallic War was traditionally used as the first ‘real’ Latin text for students for centuries, because it’s written in particularly clear, elegant, beautiful Latin. It’s difficult to find a translation that does it justice, especially a free translation.
I’ve uploaded a pdf version of the 1919 Loeb version – facing pages with Latin and a fairly literal English translation. I originally downloaded it from Google, but now it seems to have been removed for some reason, even though it’s clearly out of copyright.
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-a52694e5.html
Last evening on Nova about the Ulthbert swords, then mentioned that when a Viking warrior was killed in battle, his sword was also killed (by bending it in a semicircular curve) before burying it with him, lest he use it again in revenge against the victor in Valhalla.
When I wrote Faery Moon, I did it on a spate of looking into the practices of Celtic cults, some survivals in modern Britain, and what stood behind them. The Old Gods were not a gentle sort, and human sacrifice was an option when things went really bad. One book you might want to find is Life and Death of a Druid Prince, which, with photos, relates to a bog burial and how to interpret it.
The elves of Faery Moon are much closer to the not-so-friendly elves of myth; the pooka—well, he’s been damned for violating the law of his kind, poor fellow: he did a good deed, once, and never has been forgiven for it—forgiveness not being among the virtues of Celtic deities, who were far more about balance and cycles. It’s a very interesting period, both dark and bright, reflecting a time when you *could* find a forest where no human foot had yet trod…
The Alvars apparently drained ‘civilized’ Europe of hard cash with the tributes that were regularly paid to buy off the invasion of the month. (After all, why waste energy fighting when you can get the suckers to pay you off, with just the occasional pillage to remind them of what could happen. And they were a fearsome lot)
Their population did have a huge central ring fortification as a ‘capital’ equivalent. Charlemagne’s invasion – definitely spurred by economics – ‘broke’ the ‘Ring of the Alvars’ and may be one of the seeds of all the Teutonic ring myths. The train of loot that was brought back was enormous, and apparently created an inflation problem that was not equaled until the Spaniards flooded the continent with Peruvian gold.
Dane-Geld
A.D. 980-1016
It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: —
“We invaded you last night–we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away.”
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you’ve only to pay ’em the Dane-geld
And then you’ll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: —
“Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away.”
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we’ve proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: —
“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!”
–Rudyard Kipling.
Probably, in the way of unurbanized peoples, the gold for them was a matter of status, like a dragon-hoard, and only used for national and personal show, while commerce went on in other coinage…that’s the general way such things went. In a sense, gold is always like that, even for civilized nations, but we make somewhat more sophisticated use of it. In essence, it still lies in hoards, but our presidents and prime ministers don’t hand out gold rings for reward…
— But gold is so glittery, precious.
— Nay, all that glitters is not gold.
(With apologies to Willy.)
Mr. Kipling’s fine poesy aside, I’m quite fond of Danish of whatever kinds, though not so much fond of gelding. Tends to make one want to duck and cover. 😆
Oddly enough, I have a story idea now. Only an idea, and it’s getting crowded in there, too many denizens/critters.
Side benefit: I remembered reading some Tolkien comment about the word, dwarf, and how it could’ve ended up spelled and sounded another way. So I looked it up: OE “dweorg, dweorh,” depending on if the final consonant was unvoiced kh or voiced gh, fricatives and not stops like k or g, like khi and gamma or like jota and Bach and loch, very strong HH sound and a “blurry” hard G in between G and H.
The idea sounds very much like the fatalist Anglo-Saxons, Danes/Vikings, and other early Germanics. But I think I have a less gloomy point to it in there. Just have to find it.
Never mind that I have umpteen other story ideas/drafts in various stages of (in-)completion….
Darn muses / plot bunnies, always messing with a body…. (Huh, I didn’t know there was a body too. Oh, bother….)
😉 The reference is to the ‘dane-gold’, or the price the early inhabitants of Britain paid to the Viking colony at York to keep on their side of the Danelaw, or Dane-line, ie, rather than have the Vikings (led by one of my ancestors, old Ivar the Boneless) trek over to THEIR side of the Danelaw to roust the gold out of their pockets, they’d just SHIP the gold to the Danes to get them to stay put.
It didn’t work that well. The old Vikings preferred the thrill of the hunt.
Traced us through our Welsh ancestor Rhys “Gryg” ap Rhys’s GGGM Ragnhild to the High King of Dublin Brian Boru, and can’t get much more Viking a name than Ragnhild! I’d always heard “the kings of Dublin weren’t Irish. They’re Norse!”, but I didn’t expect to be descended form ’em!
I did get the Dane-geld meaning, I was just kidding, wordplay.
I thought you had. But in case somebody missed it, it’s kind of an interesting little sidelight on English history. So many, many peoples went into making England what it is.
The question begs… how did poor Ivar get Boneless?
One would expect the humic acids from bog-burials would dissolve the bones before too long while they tanned the skin. Any bones in Tolund Man? Presumably the people back then knew that, and “boneless” could mean some connection with the “underworld”.
The bones become pliable, indeed. That’s an interesting idea, one I don’t think I’ve heard proposed, but it certainly describes the condition. Possibly the term transferred to a very limber person, who in his youth amused the mead-hall by doing weird tricks.
Consider Sherlock Holmes had Asperger’s. The younger brother, older father. Bell probably recognized it if Doyle didn’t. Asperger’s may steal empathy, but it doesn’t short creativity nor analytics.
That’s long been debated. Tell you what was rather spooky: knowing I’m possibly related to this chap, AKA leader of the Great Heathen Army—and then watching a recent program on telly, in which they dug up a grave and do believe that it may be great-multiple-times-great uncle Ivar. He was a tall fellow, the bones look healthy enough, so if that is him, whatever happened to him must’ve happened after he got his full growth, if that is Ivar. Possibly a spinal injury. According to the story, he had to be carried on his shield wherever he went, but those bones aren’t those of a fellow lifelong an invalid…An alternate interpretation (and there are dozens) says that he was particularly limber. He’s from way, way back in history, however, and precise records are a wee bit, well, poetic.
Here’s the link to the find: http://www.reptonchurch.org.uk/Vikings.htm
Since the discussion has turned to Vikings, etc. you may enjoy this:
Grendel’s Dog: A Fragment from Beocat
by the Old English Epic’s Unknown Author’s Cat
(Modern English verse translation by the Editor’s Cat)
Brave Beocat, brood kit of Ecgthmeow,
Hearth-pet of Hrothgar, in whose high halls
He mauled without mercy many fat mice,
Night did not find napping nor snack-feasting.
The wary war-cat, whiskered paw-wielder,
Bearer of the burnished neck-belt, gold-braided collar-band,
Feller of fleas, fatal, too, to ticks,
The work of wonder-smiths, woven with witches’ charms,
Sat on the throne-seat, his ears like sword-points
Upraised, sharp-tipped, listening for peril-sounds,
When he heard from the moor-hill howls of the hell-hound,
Gruesome hunger-grunts of Grendel’s Great Dane,
Deadly doom-mutt, dread demon-dog.
Then boasted Beocat, noble battle-kitten,
Bane of barrow-bunnies, bold seeker of nest-booty,
“If hand of man unhasped the heavy hall-door
And freed me to frolic forth to fight the fang-bearing fiend,
I would lay the whelpling low with lethal claw-blows;
Fur would fly and the foe would taste death-food.
But resounding snooze-noise, stern slumber-thunder,
Nose-music of men snoring mead-hammered in the wine-hall,
Fills me with sorrow-feeling for Fate does not see fit
To send some fingered folk to lift the firm-fastened latch
That I might go grapple with the grim ghoul-pooch.”
Thus spake the mouse-shredder, hunter of hall-pests,
Short-haired Hrodent-slayer, greatest of the pussy-Geats.
– from Henry Beard’s Poetry for Cats
ROTFLMAO. Or is that ME-O.
Some Eastern dialects have it as Hrothful-Miyeawou.