Jane and I are going to draw up a good big one, and we are asking for help.
Please give us lists of place names and clan names and we will try to do a definitive where-the-rivers are and what are the islands and towns and such sort of map, also including Bretano, which is actually north of Port Jackson…
I have faith the Wavy Navy can help us out! Just post them as lists of names in reply to this message and we will sort them out. I have a good memory, just not an orderly one.
This may be another place where the text played a bit “fast and loose” with the reality. It has never seemed to me that the Raji continent is big enough!
On the Oregon Trail, starting nearly half-way across the continent, it was walked in 3-4 months or so. Things have always moved too fast for that, but there were mentions and implications of people moving around all over, afoot and astride. Mechita seem, are portrayed on covers, much like heavy-weight camels. How far can the Tuareg push a camel in a night?
For another example, in “Bretrayer”, when Bren’s armored bus returns from Tanaja to Najida, on unpaved double-track roads because paved super-highways have always been rejected (something a native-born Angelino expat understands), how long does it take? It reads as if it’s one day. I don’t recall mention of day-night cycles during the journey. How far can one drive a heavy bus on double-track in a day?
It could be Australia-sized.
(I have problems with how far Mospheira is from the continent. A sailboat trip that takes from early afternoon to at least the next morning is a lot farther than a rowboat trip, and too far to see the island from anywhere close to the continent, at least not without being pretty high up.)
Australia-sized, and maybe Mospheira is equivalent to Tasmania?
Maybe. What I know is that the distance you can see something depends on how high it is, and how high you are. Normal human eye height, the horizon is a lot closer than you think. If it’s a really tall mountain – depending on time of day, 50 to 70 miles. A smaller mountain, up to 50 miles, I think, if, say, you’re up on a hill.
(I live in California. We have all kinds of terrain to play with, including really seriously flat (like, a USGS quad with three contour lines, and two are the same altitude across different corners: Rico Ranch quad). From Evergreen College in southeast San Jose it is, or was, possible to see SF and Mt Tamalpais in Marin, on a good day. On CA-99, there are places where you can see both the Sierra and the Coast Range, but not many, because the valley is wide and flat. But if you’re going downhill on I580, toward Tracy, you can see the Sierra from the Coast Range, and that’s closer to 70 miles. Go up to the top of Mt Diablo, especially in winter, and you can have hundred-mile-plus visibility – but it’s at nearly 3500 feet, higher than nearly everything within view. Also it’s cold and windy.)
If it’s a megacontinent as CJ says, then mash Africa into Eurasia and, well, you’re on something larger than North Americans _can_ experience. From the top of the Matterhorn or Mt Blanc, all you can see is a bit of Europe.
We can imagine the best comparisons to be the Trans-Siberian Railway, or the Peking to Paris Race, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_to_Paris, originally the 1907 race took 61 days. Most modern re-enactments take 36 on mostly paved roads, most in modern cars, though it has been done in vintage automobiles. Most have traveled mostly through Russia, but a few have taken a “Silk Road” route. Mechanical breakdowns are common.
Look at the biodiversity of the people and cultures in that landmass. From the Kalahari’s San, across the Bantu Band in Central Africa to the Norwegians and Suomi in the far northwest, the Indian subcontinent’s peoples and languages, the Malay, to the Han Chinese and Chukchi of the far northeast tip.
Maybe whether this constitutes a megacontinent is debatable, it’d need the Americas mashed in too to make another Pangea, but the distances and diversity is nothing like we’ve seen in the Ragi/Malguri lands! And we’ve seen nothing to suggest the Ragi know it, nor even the humans which always should have since landing!
How large is the planet? In order to have an equivalent gravity, or close to Earth’s, it would need to be fairly close in size or have sufficient density that it would have equivalent gravity.
if it’s Australia-sized, then what’s on the other side of the planet? I wouldn’t think that a species such as the Atevi would have evolved on a single island, unless that island were the size of Eurasia and Africa combined. Just my unscientific opinion.
I wonder what the people on the other side of the world are like, are they primitive or advanced, do they have contact with the Atevi on this side of the world? hmmmm
a single landmass would make the world like Earth before Pangea split up ….. in the early Permian … interesting
A single landmass might also account for some of the horrible storms around the eastern(?) seacoast that prevent a lot of sailing. When there isn’t anything to deflect the sea breeze, it can build up into quite the blow, like the Roaring 40s around the Horn(s)
It is a megacontinent, and there is a grouping of Mospheira, the Great Southern Island, Crescent Island, and I’m not sure what else. Whether the megacontinent is assembling or coming apart, I haven’t decided. But it’s a timescale a little outside our concern. The Great Southern Island is the origin of the Marid population, mostly: a previous civilization there collapsed due to a land-slip tidal wave and the survivors settled in the Marid. The Great Southern Island is now populated, but it’s not prosperous.
The Southern Ocean is horrid: winds roar around the world unchecked except by the Great Southern Island, and once out of its lee, it’s rough and stormy. Modern large freighters with stabilizers and the aid of satellite weather forecasts are the hope for shipping. Ilisidi’s coast has some tranquil spots, but the ocean just goes right round to the other shore of Mospheira, and the storms are something fierce.
I remember there also being a chain of islands “somewhere”, which I always pictured looking like Hawaii (called the… Aidjaiwaio or something? Pardon me if I’ve butchered that!)
Is Crescent Island the remains of an old volcano? 😀
Off-Topic: I finally got by the post office and picked up my pkg, a yosd ball-jointed doll (about Wiishu’s size, different maker). My camera is, alas, still in storage. Pictures will eventually be forthcoming. — I ordered “Gaius” from MyouDoll through JunkySpot here in the US; quick service.
We’re finally getting rain here, much needed. Temps have not yet reached 100+, at least officially, and are forecast to the low to mid 90’s through the end of next week, meaning it’s been about normal here this summer. Lows are in the upper 70’s near 80.
Some neighbors were in the pool on the 3rd, but I haven’t yet been in. Probably soon though!
Still saying hi to neighbors, still not really meeting many, but that should improve (I hope) this month and into the months ahead. This is past my 4th month in the new apartment.
This time we are going to draw up a truly definitive map and post it here as well as have it in the next book—where it will be really useful. Assigned artists have done the maps in the books, and they are just skewed all over the place. They have the Marid south of Najida, when in fact it’s directly under Shejidan (across some mountains), and they have Bretano south of Port Jackson, which it isn’t. Let me count the ways.
I may have fallen for some of the same fallacies as said artists, particularly with regard to Marid-Najida-Shejidan…
Gee, that WOULD be great…..do you have plans to make up a map of say, Ylesuin and Ilefinian? Just a thought……(Oh, I know, the Fortress series isn’t everyone’s favorite, nor the Morgaine series….but one can hope…)
I adore maps. And I’ve noticed a few — let’s call them wibbles — around the ones that have been available.
Been reading the books from Intruder on, lately. I’ve wondered a bit about where things are compared to where, because the text and the maps wibble over things, but here goes.
West coast: Northern Isles. Dur is up there somewhere. Going south, Mospheira (no, not touching Mospheiran geography right now) off the coast, on the other side of ‘the Straits’. I don’t recall if the Straits have been named in the text. Mogari-Nai is on the mainland coast across from Mospheira at some level. South is Najidama Bay; Najida lies facing that, on the peninsula between it and Kajidama Bay, which is south again. Kajiminda faces Kajidama Bay and lies on a different peninsula than Najida does; I don’t have a note regarding what it is called. Both Najida estate and Kajiminda estate are associated with same-name fishing villages, both of which are ethnically Edi. The western ends of their respective peninsulas are being partitioned off for use by the Edi as their new tribal lands. The Edi were surveying the area to lay out ‘Grandmother stones’ as of the end of Betrayer.
East of Najida is a small airport, which is a mown strip of grass with a wind sock and a small building to act as terminal and all-around useful structure. It lies a kilometer and a half (more or less) beyond the Najida train station, on a spur of the same road from Najida and Najida village. Cajeiri mentions that it is about a quarter of an hour from the train station. One wonders how bad the spur road really is …
South of Kajiminda are Dalaigi and Separti township. At different times, both have been called ‘the largest town of X’; Dalaigi of the West coast, Separti township of Sarini Province. Both have an airport. I gather from hints in the text that they may share the same airport, and if so, then Dalaigi is on the coast with Separti township a bit inland of it, possibly with access to water traffic via an estuary or large river. Dalaigi may be in a different province, but if so, I haven’t run across the name.
South and east of Kajiminda are the Maschi clan lands; one needs to take the Separti township road going south from Kajiminda, then take an eastward turn-off to get to them. The land rises and becomes rocky and mountainous; a gorge containing the river Soa must be crossed to reach Targai, the Maschi clan seat. The trip is very scenic. Maschi sub-clans are Pejithi, Parathi, and Pasithi. New Maschi clan head Haidiri (Haidi before his elevation to the post) is mentioned as being of both clan Pejithi and Pasithi. One wonders if there was a renaming of a clan due to elevation, as with Haidiri himself, or if he has relatives of equal strength in both, or if there is some other finesse at work.
The Maschi have borders with Taisigi and Senji; Najida apparently has a border with Taisigi, too, in that odd, overlapping way that the atevi have of not having distinct borders with each other. (One is reminded of a linguistics class where it was stated that starting in Paris, any two towns side-by-side between it and Berlin spoke mutually intelligible dialects, but the two endpoints of Paris and Berlin were mutually unintelligible. I have to wonder if atevi associations and the ‘borders’ they maintain may submit to similar principals.)
There is a seasonal hunting lodge between Najida and Tanaja; one gets the impression from the text that it is six hours or more by gravel or grass roads of varying quality from Tanaja, and is still within the Marid at that point. Not sure if it is the Taisigin Marid or the Senjin Marid, however. Both are possible, as Maschi apparently has borders with both. But since Bren and crew were avoiding Senji, one assumes Taisigi.
Random thought balloon: is the Marid to be considered a province? The major clans there — Taisigi, Senji, Dojisigi, Dausigi, and Sungeni — all tend to be referred to as districts.
Also on the way between Tanaja and Najida, though not directly on the road, is a farm village named Apai. Bren and co. stop there for fuel during the escape from Tanaja.
Some of the clans and sub-clans not already mentioned but associated with the above areas: Geigi had a Marid wife, at different points listed as Sulesi, Samiusi, and Paru. Paru is a sub-clan of Samiusi; not sure about the Sulesi connection (his mother was apparently Sulesi, though.) Samiusi also have an association with Hagrani, which is a sub-clan of Taisigi. Machigi is related to Hagrani. Machigi also has some relation to Tanji clan, and is said at one point to be of that clan; one wonders if the name is a sub-clan name of either Taisigi or Farai. If so, it is more likely to be Taisigi, and all but extinct, given the dearth of Machigi relatives due to Marid infighting.
The Maschi clan head before Geigi was Pairuti, and according to text references, he had a contract wife named Lujo, daughter of Haidini, of the Senjin Marid. He had a son of that marriage, but since he is listed as without heirs when he and Geigi meet for the last time, one assumes the son went with the wife. That son would be about 20 years old as of Betrayer.
Other Pairuti offspring who apparently went with the wives: a son and a daughter, both to Koga clan, likely (though not stated absolutely) a Maschi sub-clan. That was apparently a love match, not a political one, and the offspring are no older than their teens at this point. A daughter born of a ‘remote Taibeni relative’ is older than the Senjin boy, possibly by a full generation or more. And two sons by a ‘northern clan wife’ are older than the Taibeni girl.
The Maladesi had Najida estate before Bren. They had an affiliation with the Farai at a complicated remove, which they used to claim Bren’s Bujavid apartment. Said remove was a marriage into clan Morigi, which is extinct. Morigi-Dar is the clan seat of the Farai; one assumes that they claimed it via not so complicated means.
Other affiliations include Mada, Machigi’s mother, and an alliance with Dojisigi, although they are apparently officially part of the Senjin Marid clan structure. One wonders if they are, or were, jockeying to become a clan in their own right, given their back-and-forth behavior with various allies. If so, one wonders where exactly their clan lands lie. The maps say Morigi-Dar is north and east of Amarja, the clan seat of Senji, which is north of Tanaja.
Another clan mentioned on the maps is Camatho, clan seat Homa. It is west and north of Morigi-Dar, according to the maps. No mention of it is made during any journey Bren makes between Najida and Tanaja during Betrayer. One assumes it is well within Senjin territory.
A bit of Eastern associations connects to Maschi through Baiji, who was Geigi’s heir and now is out to stud. He married Maei of the Calrunaidi, a sub-clan of Ardija, which is mentioned as being next to Malguri.
Ethnicities mentioned at various points are Ragi, with its ancestral center apparently at Taiben, Edi, Gan, the Marid, and ‘Easterners’. Geigi is none of these, however, but is associated more with Ragi interests than others.
I’m currently reading Protector, which talks a LOT about Padi Valley associations. Maybe another post for those, though — there tends to be a lot of action and avalanching information in the ends of books!
As already mentioned, the planet must be very close to the same size and density as Earth, as given by evidence humans find it a comfortable 1G, and the air density (for breathing and effective airplanes designed to specs humans brought with them). So, how far can one be expected to drive cross-country on some gravel, bit mostly grassy double-track “roads”? Certainly we must have one or more hunters among us that have that information. 10MPH, certainly no more than 20mph?
So, taking one time-zone, 1/24th of the Earth’s circumference at around the 40th parallel, as a representative distance between regions in Ragi lands, how long would it take to drive?
It’s implied in the earlier books that the day is longer than 24 standard earth hours, but I noticed CJ’s very specifically never told us how many days in a year or even how many months in a year.
BUT. Since I have the chance to be pedantic-
Jase was 28 “old earth years” in book 2 and in book 3 he’s 25ish atevi years. Making the atevi year round about 408 days long. If we make that 403, it would make 13 31-day months very nicely and avoid infelicitous numbers.
We have a lot of non-paved roads in this area, and speed REALLY varies on the upkeep of the road, weather, and the terrain. Flat, well maintained, DRY track, you can get a pretty good clip going, call it 30 to 40 mph, more if you want to get crazy and don’t have to worry about obstacles like rabbits or rocks or its graveled. 50 mph is very possible if its well kept up. Throw critters, weather, or potholes in on that flat road, and you’re going to be down, maybe as low as 20 mph or less. Potentially way less.
Well maintained mountain roads, with gravel, you can do 30 to 40 mph. We used to go dinging around in the hills, the loggers can handle the roads just fine. The roads go for miles and miles here, we occasionally had to bypass the highway and go 100 miles or more on the gravel roads to get home (yes, the highway washes out here). We used to figure an average traveling speed on the maintained graveled roads at 30 mph. Some places we could go faster, others we had to slow for curves and the like. Older dirt roads, with poor to no upkeep, 10 mph. Less if the trees were scraping paint, mostly because you had to keep a watch for wash outs and limbs doing damage.
Confirmation on whether the mountain on Mospheira is Mt Allan Thomas or Mt Adam Thomas, or if there are two mountains. (I like to think Allan and Adam were brothers, and in different timelines it varies who got the mountain named after them.)
Lol! I like that, but it is Adam Thomas.
I know that Ilisidi called it Noburanjiru! (“Grandmother of Snows.”)
I think Cajeiri should be assigned the task of listing all clans and sub-clans in an area. Illisidi would certainly approve the assignment… and review for accuracy with the eyes of a hawk! 😏
Now I have the image of Cajeiri carefully writing out a list with annotations and grumbling a bit, and Wham! Ilisidi bangs her cane and explains exactly why the young gentleman needs to know all this information. And by the way, you will also be noting it on the large map.
Hmm, the new Foreigner map surely needs atevi-style pushpins, as it might be the very map the young gentleman has in his study. 😉
CJ, wondering when you lost control? One little idea and the WavyNavy spawns 14 new books! BWAHAHAHAHA.
Hmmmm…. The continent as Pangea, Mospheria as the Indian sub- continent, Dur as Madagascar…. Come to think, Mospheria is about the same shape as the sub-continent. Steal from the best!
I always figured Mospheira was more like one of the Japanese islands. Hokkaido, the 2nd largest island, has a population of 5 million, and is about the size of South Carolina.
Don’t forget – inconsistencies are built in by the Atevi as a defensive measure. Surely you would not expect Bren’s narrator to give you any exact maps. The dropping of communication devices during Tabini’s temporary exile shows the importance of improper maps.
Just read and enjoy the continuing saga and don’t fret the small stuff.
I suspect Herself likes seeing the excited, positive responses and likes seeing how far the guesses go toward what she’s got in mind, and to see how far afield we go with speculation and ideas. It’s got to feel good to see people still have lots of interest in new stuff in the story-universe.
Heh, 14 new books? Great! But I’ll confess I’m still looking forward to more Alliance-Union, Chanur, or wholly original stuff, continuations of any other series, as much as Foreigner. Very much looking forward to the upcoming Alliance Rising and second book, and the history companion piece when the books are published.
For that matter, I liked the Seeking North collaboration between CJC, Jane, and Lynn, now a few years back, and wish it could be picked up again and finished.
May I second that, re: Seeking North?
If it’s not too late, one ought to consider the consequences of megacontinents on ocean currents, and then their impact on weather systems and storms.
For example, without shallow equatorial waters that warm, full-blown hurricanes may be nonexistant.
That mid-continent mountain range must be relatively close to the ocean, or the East would be less habitable (they’d likely have a largish desert). A lot of their weather must come from north and south, bypassing that range.
Another thing, when it comes effects of ocean currents, you should not overlook the atmospheric circulation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_circulation) patterns created by the coriolis force and the rising of equatorial hot air. On Earth that creates general desertification zones around 30 degrees Nort and South. That should be true on the Ragi continent as well. Deserts don’t come immediately to mind. There should be a humongous one in the center of the megacontinent too, being so far from from water-laden oceanic winds.
I’m thinking that the continent is larger east-west than it is north-south, so that the central mountain range isn’t as much a barrier as it might be otherwise. It seems to be a cooler planet, also, in terms of temperature, though Mospheira is apparently warmer than the mainland.
All I can remember at the moment is that Banichi is from Dajoshu Township in Talidi Province. 😛 Which is somewhere in the south with Sarini Province?
Also, the Nisebi atevi should be given a suitably tropical home. I believe they’re only mentioned in Foreigner, and have had no mention since. (They were the ones that humans traded non-seasonal meat with, because apparently the Nisebi did not have the same taboos against out of season game that the Ragi do.)
Where is Shejidan in relation to the equator? I’m curious about the climate as I can’t decide if it’s temperate or verging on sub-tropical. Also, are there Arctic dwelling atevi? How far does the population range across the continent, and have they adapted to the same wide range of environments that humans have?
I have the impression that it’s somewhere between 30 and 50 south – it has a lot of cool weather, even in summer – but nothing really tropical or polar as far as the major areas in the stories. Maybe Mospheira gets some of the weather from equatorial cvurrents – it’s hard to tell, but it seems to be warmer and wetter than the continent.
I know that Crescent Island was said to be humid and very rainy, which makes me think it’s sub-tropical at the very least.
Or the Pacific Northwest coast – temperate-zone rainforest. (Look up the Olympic Peninsula.) The islands off British Columbia, also.